Category Archives: Dialogue

On Agreement

Two men are having a discussion in an Athens marketplace.

- Tell me, Timaeus, do you consider it possible that people can ever agree on anything?
- I think that is impossible, dear Socrates, one has to just look at the state of the world and one sees that agreement is a sheer impossibility.
- I agree with you, the world is full of difficult issues that don’t seem solvable. Which brings me to my next point: didn’t we just agree that it is impossible to agree?
- Hmh, yes we did.
- So it is possible to agree on something, then?
- So it seems.
- Doesn’t this contradict our original proposition?
- Indeed it does.
- So perhaps it is so that agreement requires letting go of the idea of coherent thought and fixed identity that we are so in love with?
- I can’t but agree, but what would it look like to my friends if I agreed with Socrates? So I decide to disagree with you, you are arrogant and selfish and you are ruining the youth with such ideas. I will soon ask my fellow Athenians if we could sentence you to death.
- I have made my point, now I can die happily.

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Thinking of the Logic of Truth

1. In language and thought, there are two types of statements: statements of truth and statements of belief.

2. Statements of belief emerge into being-in-the-language from the state of consciousness in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. The opposite is true for statements of disbelief.

3. Regular language only handles statements of belief. That is, also sentences like “that is true” refer to the harmony between the statement and the individual consciousness, and “that is false” refers to the conflict between them.

4. Statements of truth emerge from the state of consciousness being in accord with reality. This requires understanding that has been reached through a dialogic process, either with reality or with other people.

5. From these follows that statements of truth are true (in accord with reality) regardless of whether they are supported by statements of belief or attacked by statements of disbelief.

This brings me to the idea that is constantly repeating in my head:

P: If Q is true, then it must be true irrespective of whether it is believed to be true or false.

Let’s say someone attacked this with some kind of argument R that said:

R: P is false because Q can only be true when it is believed by everyone to be true. Truth is a social construction.

What R actually says is that truth doesn’t exist outside the social context. This is a valid point that doesn’t really contradict the original proposition but complements it. We should also be aware of the fact that this very debate takes place inside the social context, and we’re actually discussing the truth right here and now. Also, the statement doesn’t say anything about Q actually being true; there is the structure of if-then. This structure opens the way for the social process of dialogue that seeks to find the truth. However, such common understanding can only be found when participants actively seek cognitive harmony.

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The Abstraction War

William Isaacs coined a brilliant term in his dialogue book: the abstraction war, which refers to people lobbing abstract opinions without exploring what the opinions of others mean. Here’s a made-up example, not so far from truth though.

A: I think Greece should be kicked out of the eurozone and let to default.
B: How can you even suggest such things!? It would mean a disaster for the Greeks.
A: Well, they had it coming didn’t they?
B: But it’s not right! It’s the politicians’ fault.
A: Well the people elected the politicians so they must bear the outcome.
B: Default will certainly lead to much suffering.
A: Yeah, but it’s creative destruction at work.

Here we can easily recognize what the problem is: A and B are not trying to achieve any common understanding that is based on what is true, but each of them uses abstract language with the objective to win. This is actually what much of current political discourse looks like.

Here’s an alternative version of the discussion that could lead to more constructive understanding, but will probably lead to A’s awkward silence and eventual exit from the situation:

A: I think Greece should be kicked out of the eurozone and let to default.
B: Yeah, I have followed the situation in Greece for quite a while. Actually their problem is deeply structural, and the solution is not so simple. The northern countries are just making the situation worse with their demands for austerity.
A: They are lazy and it is right for them to suffer!
B: Erm, don’t you think you’re being a bit extreme and biased? What do you think is behind the excessive demands for austerity?
A: [awkward silence]
B: Do you consider bailouts to be a long-term solution?
A: [moves away from the situation]

P.S. Here’s an article written by Isaacs that combines the idea of dialogue with organizational learning. I uploaded it here so that it won’t get lost: Dialogue, Collective Thinking, and Organizational Learning

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On Solving the Problem of Communication

In his essay On Communication, David Bohm describes “the problem of communication” like this:

People living in different nations, with different economic and political systems, are hardly able to talk to each other without fighting. And within any single nation, different social classes and economic and political groups are caught in a similar pattern of inability to understand each other. Indeed, even within each limited group, people are talking of a “generation gap,” which is such that older and younger members do not communicate, except perhaps in a superficial way. Moreover, in schools and universities, students tend to feel that their teachers are overwhelming them with a flood of information which they suspect is irrelevant to actual life. And what appears on the radio and television, as well as in the newspapers and magazines, is generally at best a collection of trivial and almost unrelated fragments, while at worst, it can often be a really harmful source of confusion and misinformation.

In this text I try to clarify and deepen the understanding on what this problem of communication is like, what causes it and what can be done with it. I will hopefully achieve increased understanding concerning the most acute problem of our time.

The problem of communication can be understood as the structural misunderstanding in the contemporary society that is the result of fragmentation of thought and the domination of mental representations.

The fragmentation of thought manifests itself in four fields:
1) obscurity of language: “This is a problem that must be tackled.”
2) division of the whole: “We will win this war.”
3) pursuit of specialization: “They are the experts, they know best.”
4) refusal to generalize: “These are two different things.”

In everyday language fragmentation is seen in the way concepts are used as though they are independent from their social, political and economical context. Examples of such concepts are unemployment, the powers of the president, low voting activity and environmental problems: none of these cannot really be viewed separate from the complete structure of the society. Fragmentation, however, enables this through specialized understanding: it allows functioning even without the whole picture of the various systems such as society, economy or culture. This understanding leads to treating problems as technical rather than political or communicative.

Division of the whole refers to the aspirations towards splitting human systems such as nation states, political unions and religions into separate fragments. This is evident in celebrations of independence and victory in a war. This division emerges from the fragmentation of language, in which the concepts of us and them refer to communities produced by the cultural and social imagination rather than to any observable communities.

The pursuit of specialization in all fields – be it scientific or social – is evident in the contemporary society, and can also be seen in the way specialization and focusing on niches is valued in everyday discourses in economy and politics. An example of such a discourse is one concerning political systems: specialization in the use of power is seen as necessary component of a functional political system, which results in the division of political labor to different ministries. Big companies also seek to focus their operations and externalize functions that are seen as “not our core know-how”.

Refusal to generalize comes up in situations where analogies and similarities are found. For example: Finnish education model can be seen unfit for the USA because “Finland is such a small country”. However, about 30 states of the United States have a population close to or less than Finland. This refusal is also seen in how problems in developing countries are treated as special while the same issues have to be solved by all societies (as famously noted by Herbert Spencer).

The domination of mental representations means that models, theories, cultural structures and interpretative explanations get definitive power over individual thought. Examples of such structures are nations, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and Homo economicus. In this process, theories and models are accepted uncritically based on the authority of the scientific or cultural canon. The domination of representation is related to Weber’s concept of iron cage, but also to the everyday “box” that restricts creative thinking. Critical theory seeks to overcome this box by creating critical explanations that have the ability to deconstruct mental structures.

So, what is the solution to the problem of communication that I have described above?

It is not just being an active listener – this actually means nothing without new mental structures that are able to handle and incorporate new information effectively. To build these new structures, an inner play – a theater or a story of the mind – should be formed that allows different characters to emerge with their own voices and points of view. Examples of these characters can be God (the source of all things moral and good), the hero, the sidekick, the teacher and the critic/archenemy. Instead of blindly obeying any of these voices, one should learn to watch the play silently, see how it develops after plot twists (such as after new information has emerged) and eventually find the path of action that fits best to the situation. New information from books or magazines can be imagined as the lines of the teacher who simply doesn’t give up his efforts. Later on also new events in the process of life are included in the play. For example when challenges arise, God asks in a sneering tone: “Did you really think it was going to be that easy?”

The skill of inner play takes time to develop, and the process can seem slow in the beginning when nothing seems to emerge or when one character (such as the unsparing critic) dominates the scene. However, eventually it will result in good and justified decisions that take the whole into account, as well as mental balance. Forming the inner play also paves the way for social change, since each individual can treat other people’s opinions as openly as the various characters inside the mind.

Interestingly, a play includes all the characteristics of Bohm dialogue: the stage is the empty space, characters are the people each of which have their own plays going on, and the plot has all the twists: the enthusiasm, the hubris, the failure, the recovery and the success.

We are actually constantly surrounded with theater terms, when we talk of personal tragedies, note how someone is a drama queen, resent the political spectacle or talk about a football game being quite a show. Maybe it is time we recognize theater as a deeper structure of the reality. After all, isn’t all this just a divine comedy?

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Of the enjoyment of discussion

I have enjoyed following a good conversation ever since I was a child. I remember not being able to understand much of the debates between my father and grandmother or between my mother and stepfather, but curiosity drove me to listen to them. Father and grandmother talked politics, and the latter two established a small business back in 1998, which meant they often discussed business issues.

Later I often visited my grandmother to have a chat with her; she had been a telegraphist in the Lotta Svärd organization during the war. She was really sharp even in her old days and had many stories that I was eager to listen to.

The harsh reality of impoliteness struck me in the face while having the first online discussions. People didn’t seem to have respect for each other, nor did they even try to achieve any kind of mutual understanding. Instead, every place online seemed like a big shouting competition. This has caused me never to become an active online debater for a longer period of time: non-personality feeds the competition mentality, and reasonable comments get lost in the BS. When you actually challenge someone’s stance, either you’re going to get bashed or the other person just remains quiet. In any case, nothing constructive arises.

However, I still occasionally follow discussion on some sites such as Guardian’s Comment is Free or Salon.com. Participation is most often rewarded with unreasonable bashing, so it’s of little use.

Nonetheless, the few times one actually encounters a good dialogue makes one believe that, compared to this state of foolish shouting, something better could exist.

Robert Hopkin and others in studio

Robert Hopkin and others in studio. Hopkin seated on far right smoking a pipe with two unidentified men, photographer unknown.

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Evolution of systems and movement of dialogue

Inspired by the development pattern of dialogue Isaacs presents in his Dialogue and the Art of Thinking Together, I started wondering what kind of picture could describe the process. Here’s what I came up with:

On page 256 there is a graph that shows the different fields of dialogue according to Otto Scharmer. Isaacs emphasizes that the purpose of the dialogue is the movement between the fields. Some people think that the purpose is to experience so profound a discussion and connection to other people that entirely new kind of realizations and actions emerge; however, if dialogue is considered to mean only the fourth field, it becomes an elusive fantasy which prevents actual, continuous change.

I added to the picture the various crises that emerge in different stages of the dialogue; in the thought bubble is the thought that releases the tension and makes the dialogue to move forward.

If one considers a dialogue community as a flowing system, the equivalences go something like this:

  • Field I: closed system
  • Field II: random system
  • Field III: open system
  • Field IV: synchronous system

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Holy Grail as the divine container

I’m currently reading William Isaacs’ Dialogue and the Art of Thinking Together. Isaacs introduces a thought of a container which needs to be created in order to enable open dialogue. Isaacs writes (and I translate starting from page 240 of the Finnish edition):

The idea of a container is based on the fact that people need a space in which they can express their intense feelings, thoughts and actions. Usually there are few of these kinds of spaces. People react to each others’ actions but they cannot function as each others’ containers. The effect of circumstances often seems to be bigger than the effect of people.

There are different types of containers. Our own body is a container that contains us. Also a close relationship is a container – in it one can say and do things that cannot be said or done elsewhere. Also teams and organizations are containers. These kinds of containers are usually incoherent: they include internal conflicts and inconsistencies, and their volume is limited. When the container is filled, listening and absorbing abilities are lost.

For dialogue to take place a clear and sufficiently wide container – that is, an invisible space – is needed. Dialogue is impossible unless this kind of space is consciously formed. In the course of time, when the dialogue space becomes more stable and the participants become more aware of its existence, the space stands more and more pressure. It seems that some pressure is needed before people start to think together. When the debaters raise dissenting opinions, the pressure increases. If the space can take the pressure, dialogue can get started. On the contrary, if the space cannot take the pressure, the participants shun problems, blame each other and inhibit the progress of the dialogue.

The space can be created to take the creative fire. Then the participants of the dialogue don’t feel that they are in hot water. They are in a tight place, but feel a sense of safety and belonging.

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